Curse

Redfeather1975 · Mar 21, 2008, 01:07 PM // 13:07

I've said it before, and so have many others.
They seriously have to consider 2 skill sets. One for PvP and one for PvE.
Everquest 2 did it, and they did it for a reason.
If they don't, they either make PvP no fun to play, or they make PvE a lop-sided snoozefest.
Right now it's teetering around both. They'll disappoint people either way.

Stolen Souls · Mar 21, 2008, 01:16 PM // 13:16

I'm not gonna complain about more nerfs, as by now I just take them with a "meh...".

But, it does kinda bug me how something like Power Shot is nerfed in PvE because of PvP, while things like Ursan are allowed to continue rampaging and steamrolling over anything and everything imaginable in PvE. :/

Two different sets of skills should be implemented for PvP/PvE...and should have been from the start...

Anon-e-mouse · Mar 21, 2008, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Ursan is not used in PvP, so it can't steamrol over "anything and everything"

Stolen Souls · Mar 21, 2008, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anon-e-mouse

Ursan is not used in PvP, so it can't steamrol over "anything and everything"

I never said it was...

lol u so smrat

My point was that something as insignificant in PvE as Power Shot, is hit. While something as blatantly overpowered as Ursan isn't touched.

Redfeather1975 · Mar 21, 2008, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anon-e-mouse

Ursan is not used in PvP, so it can't steamrol over "anything and everything"

And that's how Anet probably thinks about it. They haven't grasped that people complain about Ursan's because it creates the mentality of why bother trying to figure out what build to use for an area when you don't have to. They don't know how that adversely affects enjoyment.
Anet hasn't gotten that far in PvE design.

Darkobra · Mar 21, 2008, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

I've said it before, and so have many others.
They seriously have to consider 2 skill sets. One for PvP and one for PvE.
Everquest 2 did it, and they did it for a reason.
If they don't, they either make PvP no fun to play, or they make PvE a lop-sided snoozefest.
Right now it's teetering around both. They'll disappoint people either way.

They very lazily tried to do that with PvE only skills.... which then got nerfed very quickly, so most are near useless compared to regular skills.

DarkNecrid · Mar 21, 2008, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

And PvPers are very arrogant people that come and show how their need can be much more important than the useless change to PvErs experience. And if they quit, they're really immature, aren't they?

I'm fed up with this "us, us, us, us" (I'll always remind PvE people of the same). I've seen PvErs interested in PvP, but rarely the contrary. It seems to me IMHO that they're a bit more self-centered and less aware of what a PvE experience can be.

This "my logic against yours" is a total FAIL, in the global and collective sense. Please take a look at this (failed) thread that I created (all PvPers should read it and ponder):
A mercenary approach to playing due to a very competitive gaming world (?)

Um.

Yeah.

You're wrong.

Very few PvE'ers are interested in PvP, but 100% of all PvPers before the PvP kit, have PvE'd. In fact, if you obs most top teams, you will see people decked out in 15k armor, have storm bows, eternal shields, tormented shields, etc.

The same players you will see out of obs with maxed PvE titles and what not too.

I, personally, have R4 KOABD, so.

We're not all "PvE hates" as you make "us" out to be, all we do is hate the PvE'ers who think balances deserve to be PvE skewed, which makes no logical sense.

[quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarissa F

3000 players gone....compared to... 4 million games sold, meaning, around 6-700,000 players. I think they were willing to take that hit, since they more than made it up in sales to casual players.

From an exodus.

I didn't say all the PvP'ers quit you dummy.

And if they were willing to take that hit....that's why they didn't....right?

- Tain - · Mar 21, 2008, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkobra

They very lazily tried to do that with PvE only skills.... which then got nerfed very quickly, so most are near useless compared to regular skills.

All of the PvE-only skills which got nerfed are still in popular use (Seed, TNtF) and Spear of Fury actually got buffed. Yes, most are niche skills, but I wouldn't ever say that most are near useless compared to regular skills. I think what stops most of them from seeing play is the 3 skill limit.

Anon-e-mouse · Mar 21, 2008, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stolen Souls

My point was that something as insignificant in PvE as Power Shot, is hit. While something as blatantly overpowered as Ursan isn't touched.

Wrong, your point was that Power shot was nerfed in PvE, because it's used in PvP, and then you asked why Ursan wasn't nerfed. It wasn't nerfed because it's not used in PvP. Pretty much answers that question.

Stolen Souls · Mar 21, 2008, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anon-e-mouse

Wrong, your point was that Power shot was nerfed in PvE, because it's used in PvP, and then you asked why Ursan wasn't nerfed. It wasn't nerfed because it's not used in PvP. Pretty much answers that question.

Exactly. Which is why I said there needs to be two seperate sets of skills. So that insignificant skills won't need to be touched in PvE. Understand, now? Or shall I try to spell it out more?

Numa Pompilius · Mar 21, 2008, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Ursan IS a separate set of skills. It's the living proof why separating PvE and PvP is a bad idea: any semblance of balance or challenge goes straight out the window for PvE. The rebalancing is good for PvE.

I don't care about PvP, it's completely uninteresting to me. I do care about PvE, though, and that's why I hate PvE only skills.

I don't want MORE PvE only skills, I want them completely GONE.

Adapt, dammit! It's not hard. Whining about your favorite brainless farming build getting a very minor nerf is just stupid.

Stolen Souls · Mar 21, 2008, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Adapt, dammit! It's not hard. Whining about your favorite brainless farming build getting a very minor nerf is just stupid.

Yes, it is a bad idea. Ursan should be added to PvP. Then it'd be toned down accordingly.

And yeah....well my R/ Power Shot farming build got hit! It was so brainless and easy to use, too. QQ

Dr Strangelove · Mar 21, 2008, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

And that's how Anet probably thinks about it. They haven't grasped that people complain about Ursan's because it creates the mentality of why bother trying to figure out what build to use for an area when you don't have to. They don't know how that adversely affects enjoyment.
Anet hasn't gotten that far in PvE design.

The only reason to seperate PvE and PvP is so you can have wildly imbalanced crap in PvE. Why people want that is beyond me.

Fril Estelin · Mar 21, 2008, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

We're not all "PvE hates" as you make "us" out to be, all we do is hate the PvE'ers who think balances deserve to be PvE skewed, which makes no logical sense.

Please, re-read my message, I never thought, wrote or implied the notion of "hate". I said "self-centered", there's a gigantic semantic gap between the two. I should have added "the PvPers and PvErs on GWG", as my generalisation was probably harmful to both sides. Similarly to the abuse in terms "PvPer" and "PvEr" as many people seemlessly move between the two. But I think that there are requirements that are put in opposition and 2 gameplays that do not overlap (do PvPers enjoy roaming around the PvP map for the pleasure of looking at the scenery? what about the learning curve, which is rather a learning cliff, for PvP? while for PvE you just have to go to wiki or the Q&A forum, for PvP you end up with comments like "find a good PvP guild")

PvP balance has an impact on PvE, while the contrary is not true. It's even worse with Z-chest which transforms PvP rewards into PvE ones (though no one forces you to sell or use them in PvE. I also perfectly understand the necessities of PvP, though I do not understand the disrespectful behaviour of many (but not all) PvPers. I sincerely think that the PvP gameplay gets into PvPers and make them harsher than they are, a bit as if they continue to play PvP even when the game is finished (while, as you said, for PvErs, it's just a program ...)

It's a game, Anet proposes changes to make the game challenging, not for YOU, but for a community of thousands of players from all over the world. And if you quit because you're angry at Anet, you really have a problem you should solve outside of the game. Being angry is normal, reacting this way (unless you're no longer taking pleasure at playing) is immature and counter-productive. There's a good reason why PvErs have breaks from the game from time to time, something that could actually benefit the PvP world if this "mercenary approach" (see link in my previous post) was dropped in favor of a more "honorable" (for a lack of a better word, funnily this may relate to the "Dishonorable" hex) approach.

I know that my comments will meet walls of misunderstanding (and I'm sorry if I've harmed anyone's feeling, as I said before generalisation on GWG is dangerous) and be ignored, but I still wanted to make this point.

It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war that can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War

Numa Pompilius · Mar 21, 2008, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stolen Souls

Yes, it is a bad idea. Ursan should be added to PvP.

I think a "PvE-skills in PvP" weekend would be hilarious. Ursanway vs. Cry Of Pain mesmers w. Save Yourselves-way vs. Arcane-Echoed Vanguard Assassin w. Pain Inverter-way!

Quote:

And yeah....well my R/ Power Shot farming build got hit! It was so brainless and easy to use, too. QQ

If you check the whine-fests which follow every single update, you'll find it's always farmers. It's always farm builds. Case in point: recent nerf to Flame/Storm Djinns Haste. The thread ran, what, 15 pages? of complaints from farmers who could no longer use their old build to farm all the raptor hatchlings outside Rata Sum in one go.
Or how about the bugfix to Reversal of Damage? How much bitching was there about that, even though all it required to adjust for was to replace ONE of the two optional skill slots on the Smiter hero with Signet of Devotion.

Always farmers.
To a large degree, it seems, because they are simply averse to change, and partly because they have no clue how their build actually works so they have no clue how to fix it.

reetkever · Mar 21, 2008, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Meh same stuff again. PvP gets more balanced and some more PvE skills become worthless.

And then people ask why we are using stuff like Ursan instead of stuff like Power Shot. :P

Stolen Souls · Mar 21, 2008, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Well, like I said in my earlier post, I was not complaining about the nerfs. It just strikes me that they pay SO much attention to skills in PvP, "nerfing" them, and affecting the insignificant ones in PvE. Yet they allow the OBVIOUSLY overpowered Ursan to continue steamrolling PvE. If there was a skill so blatently overpowered in PvP would it be left alone for so long? :/

I mean look at Intensity...Seed of Life. They were considered overpowered, and were hit quite hard. Ursen is FAR more powerful, and how was it changed?...touch range. Whoopie. >_>

A. Noid · Mar 21, 2008, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

If you check the whine-fests which follow every single update, you'll find it's always farmers.

How does this explain this thread?

For the record:
I am disappointed, but only for the lack of variety for the ranger in PvP.
Seems every time I open up Obs mode, its the same set of skills over and over and...

-ANoid

reetkever · Mar 21, 2008, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stolen Souls

Well, like I said in my earlier post, I was not complaining about the nerfs. It just strikes me that they pay SO much attention to skills in PvP, "nerfing" them, and affecting the insignificant ones in PvE. Yet they allow the OBVIOUSLY overpowered Ursan to continue steamrolling PvE. If there was a skill so blatently overpowered in PvP would it be left alone for so long? :/

I mean look at Intensity...Seed of Life. They were considered overpowered, and were hit quite hard. Ursen is FAR more powerful, and how was it changed?...touch range. Whoopie. >_>

Yes but PvE doesn't need balance.

If PvE needed balance, monsters would have groups of 8 max, their levels would be 20, they wouldn't have extra HP, Armour, halve skill recharge etc.

Seriously, the Monsters in PvE outclass the players in almost every way. If you want to balance PvE, you have to redesign the game I think.

Stolen Souls · Mar 21, 2008, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Yes but PvE doesn't need balance.

If PvE needed balance, monsters would have groups of 8 max, their levels would be 20, they wouldn't have extra HP, Armour, halve skill recharge etc.

Seriously, the Monsters in PvE outclass the players in almost every way. If you want to balance PvE, you have to redesign the game I think.

If it didn't need balance, why were the other PvE skills hit (Seed of Life/Intensity/TNtF)? While Ursan is still...well...there?